3/18/09

PSALM 83 - Has It Found Final Fulfillment?

By Bill Salus

Currently many prophecy buffs are discussing the Psalm 83 petition formatted prophecy written by the seer Asaph approximately 3000 years ago. This prophecy enlists a ten-member population whose goal is nothing short of wiping Israel off of the map. These ancient populations are seen superimposed upon their modern day equivalents on the map below, and their confederate mandate is:
They have said, “Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more.” (Psalm 83:4, NKJV)

My book Isralestine the Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East, has caused many eschatologists to rethink their end times model. However, not all the experts agree with my end time equation that Psalm 83 precedes Ezekiel 38 & 39. There are those who still sweep the prophecy into the catchall closet of the 7-year Tribulation, or simply deposit the event into the file 13 trash can bin of historical fulfillment.

Why Psalm 83 doesn’t belong in the 7-year Trib period is a subject for a future article; however this piece is intended to pull the prophecy out of the annals of historical fulfillment and place it back into the pending event category. Furthermore this article is not intended to serve as a substitute for reading Isralestine in its entirety, which covers all the above and volumes more.

THE 2 CHRONICLES 20 ARGUMENT:
Recently I was invited by Nathan Jones, (pictured far left) the up and coming eschatologist extraordinaire and Webmaster for Dr. David Reagan’s (pictured in middle) Lamb and Lion Ministries, to participate in an ongoing blog. The argument was raised by some gentleman identified as Don that 2 Chronicles 20:1-37 likely describes the final fulfillment of the Psalm 83 prophecy. You can read my blog comments below and review some of the other assorted blogs made by others at the following link: http://www.lamblion.us/2009/01/gaza-conflict.html

“Nathan and Don- 2 Chronicles is not likely the episode Asaph describes in Psalm 83. The 2 Chronicles account primarily describes only 3, possibly 4, of the 10 member populations enlisted in the prophecy of Psalm 83. These are the Psalm 83:6-8 confederates: The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites (Hagarenes); Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot.

Now compare all of the above to 2 Chronicles 20:1-37. 2 Chron. 20:1 NKJV - It happened after this that the people of Moab with the people of Ammon, and others with them besides the Ammonites, came to battle against Jehoshaphat. (Following Masoretic Text and Vulgate; Septuagint reads Meunites see 2 Chronicles 26:7

2 Chronicles 20:1 ASV And it came to pass after this, that the children of Moab, and the children of Ammon, and with them some of the Ammonites, came against Jehoshaphat to battle.Verse 1 enlists Moab and Ammon, and possibly the Meunites.
The NKJV suggests that “others” were involved besides them, but that likely refers to the Meunites a much smaller grouping than those of Psalm 83:6-8. The Meunites, if that is who verse one references, were an Arab tribe that dwelt about 12 miles Southeast of Petra, which still puts them in modern day Southern Jordan.

I cited the ASV in addition to the NKJV to illustrate that it only identifies Ammon, and Moab. Verse 2 references Syria (Some Masoretic Text, Septuagint, and Vulgate; some Hebrew manuscripts and Old Latin read Edom.) Edom or Syria, or both, this still is only a portion of the 10 populations of Psalm. 83. Verse 10, 22-23 of 2 Chronicles 20 lists Moab, Ammon, and Mt. Seir. Mt. Seir identifies primarily the people of Edom.

Thus the populations referenced primarily would be modern day Jordan, with a slight possibility of Syria having been involved. Moab is today Central Jordan, Edom is Southern Jordan, and Ammon is Northern Jordan. Petra, Mt. Seir, and the Meunites, would also be clustered in and around Southern Jordan today.

Due to the fact that less than half of the required ten Psalm 83 populations are referenced, it is not possible that 2 Chronicles 20 could be considered as the source of Psalm 83 fulfillment. In addition, several scholars like Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Jack Kelley, Dr. David Reagan, David Dolan and more believe that Psalm 83 has yet to find its final fulfillment.”

THE 1948 AND 1967 ARAB – ISRAELI WAR (S) ARGUMENT:

There are those who believe that the six-day war of 1967 occasioned the final fulfillment of the prophecy. I have this suggestion presented to me often, and below is a recent email I sent to a friend in response to his concern that this could be the case.

I have recently been informed that you believe Psalm 83 may have found its fulfillment in the six-day war of 1967. Interestingly Dr. David Reagan and I discussed this possibility recently while visiting together at a Calvary Chapel Chino Hills conference hosted by Pastor Jack Hibbs in February 2009. We concurred that the better argument for fulfillment was the 1948 war commonly considered by the Israeli’s as “The War of Independence”, however neither of these truly meets the description in our estimation. There are 10 populations involved in Psalm 83:6-8 and not all of them were involved in 1967 and more than all of them were involved in 1948.

Additionally it is important to note that the “tents of Edom” are the first population listed in the Psalm 83:6-8 grouping and a careful study demonstrates that the Edomite descendents became tent-dwellers only in the aftermath of the 1948 Arab – Israeli War.
Biblically the “tents of” condition alludes to either refugees or military encampments. In the Edomite instance their refugee condition became a troubling reality in 1949 when the Palestinian Refugee crisis commenced. Up until that time they were known as the Arabs of Palestine, these days they are referred to as refugees. (Above Photo of Baga'a Refugee Camp 1949 UNRWA)

Isralestine devotes an entire chapter to this topic called; “Whodomites” - Who are the Edomites Today. Inside the “Whodomite” chapter the Edomite – Palestinian Refugee connection is clearly made. The chapter traces several historical waves of Edomite migration out from their original homeland into Israel. They generally settled in and around Hebron, which today exists in the modern day West Bank. Ultimately they became known as the Idumeans, which is the Greek word for Edomites. The territory they developed inside of Israel assumed the name Idumea.

It appears that since 1949 up until the present day the Palestinian Refugees, the apparent antagonistic star of the Psalm 83 show, have a descendant Edomite contingency residing within their ranks. (1949 Palestinian Refugee Photo from UNRWA)
However the additional argument against either of these two Arab – Israeli wars being the fulfillment is the fact that Asaph is petitioning God to utterly destroy this confederacy as per Psalm 83:17, an event that has not yet occurred.

He petitions God to fashion their demise in the similar format of the historic examples he lists in Psalm 83:9-11 and the allegorical illustrations of Psalm 83:13-16. The fact that these populations still exist, seek possession of the Promised land in Psalm 83:12, and continue to collectively possess the antagonistic attitude toward Israel of Psalm 83:4, conclusively evidences in my estimation that this prophecy has yet to find fulfillment.”

For article brevity sake, I’ll let the reader do his or her own homework on the participants of the 1948 and 1967 wars and if further questions develop please blog them below this article.

CONCLUSION:

The two arguments listed above are the primary ones forwarded by today’s top scholars who believe that Psalm 83 has already found its fulfillment. Having previously deposited Psalm 83 into the historical fulfillment file 13, these advocates tend to then center their focus upon Ezekiel 38 & 39 as the next Mideast Bible Prophecy set to find fulfillment. I disagree with this thinking and express my opinions further in a previous article: "Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38, Which is the Next Middle East News Headline?"

We must consider the fact that mere rumblings today between Russia and Iran in the Epicenter of the Middle East, as Joel Rosenberg likes to refer to them, does not constitute, but rather simply suggests, the nearby fulfillment of the Ezekiel 38 & 39 invasion. Oddly many military experts are predicting just the opposite, that Israel may be forced to invade Iran in order to forestall their nuclear aspirations. This could temporarily sideline Iran and render them of little immediate utility to Russia, and may be one of the reasons ancient Persia is not listed among the Psalm 83 confederates.
Anyway you prophe-size it up, some big world changing Middle East event is certainly about to happen, just like the Bible predicted it would. The fact that the Psalm 83 confederates live on today and embrace the ancient hatred of Israel signals the high likelihood that Psalm 83 is the next Mideast prophecy to find fulfillment.

16 comments:

Bill Salus said...

Below is a blog with a descenting view that was submitted to me regarding my above article. I added my quick study notes to this 1967 view in (parenthesis)below.

The Six Day War Prophesized In the Holy Bible

The Six Day War took place in 1967 and was fought between Israel and Arab neighbors Egypt, (Hagarenes) Jordan, (Ammon, Moab, Edom) and Syria. (Aram and possliby Assur) The nations of Iraq, (Babylon and possibly part of Assur) Saudi Arabia, (Ishmaelites) Sudan, Tunisia, Lebanon, (Tyre & Gebal) Morocco and Algeria also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces.
(Many of the Ps. 83 populations are included, except Philistia appears absent they are part of Ps. 83, and the tents of Edom are likely represented by the Palestinians primarily of the West Bank. Also Babylon is not listed in Ps. 83, and Syria gets tricky. There is a potential desprepancy developing between Syria and Assyria, was Asaph referring to Syria exclusively. This is a topic for further discussion.)

This war was prophesized in Psalm 83, Psalm 83 is the last of the Psalms of Asaph. For those who do not know what a Psalm is here is the definition...


The word psalm is derived from the Greek: Psalmoi, originally meaning "songs sung to a harp", from psallein "play on a stringed instrument"

Here is the last of the Psalms of Asaph, Psalm 83.

1. A song; a psalm of Asaph.
2. God, do not be silent; God, be not still and unmoved!
3. See how your enemies rage; your foes proudly raise their heads.
4. They conspire against your people, plot against those you protect..
5. They say, "Come, let us wipe out their nation; let Israel's name be mentioned no more!"
6. They scheme with one mind, in league against you:
7. The tents of Ishmael(tents of Edom, not Ishmael)and Edom, the people of Moab and Hagar,
8. Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek, Philistia and the inhabitants of Tyre.. (likely not in 1967 war)
9. Assyria, too, in league with them gives aid to the descendants of Lot. Selah
10. Deal with them as with Midian; as with Sisera and Jabin at the torrent Kishon,
11. Those destroyed at Endor, who became dung for the ground.
12. Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
13. Who made a plan together, "Let us seize the pastures of God."
14. My God, turn them into withered grass, into chaff flying before the wind.
15. As a fire raging through a forest, a flame setting mountains ablaze,
16. Pursue them with your tempest; terrify them with your storm.
17. Cover their faces with shame, till they pay you homage, LORD.
18. Let them be dismayed and shamed forever; let them perish in disgrace.
19. Show them you alone are the LORD, the Most High over all the earth.

Here is the meaning of these verses...

Verse 1...
Who is Asaph? ,he is a Levite; one of the leaders of David's choir 1 Chr. 6:39. Psalms 50 and 73-83 inclusive are attributed to him. He is mentioned along with David as skilled in music, and a "seer" 2 Chr. 29:30.

Verse 2...
The specific meaning of this verse is disputed. The verb can be translated to refer to either speech "be not silent" or motion "be not inactive".. The fact that the verse requests the assistance of God three times emphasizes the urgency of the situation and of the people's prayer.

Verses 3 through 6...
In the text of the psalm, specifically verses 3 through 6, the speaker makes the assumption that individuals who plot against the nation of Israel must inherently be enemies of God. (This is a weak explanation in my estimation, and does not identify the specific confederacy within the two groups. The two groups likely consist of those who hate God, Edom, Ishmael, Hagarenes, Moab, and Ammon, and the enemies of God, all the other 5 populations. This interpretation seems to generalize a disposition of Gentile enmity toward God, rather that a blatant disdain from a specific group of populations.) He also ascribes to them the intention of the complete extinction of the people of Israel, as that is the meaning of verse 5, which indicates that the name of Israel will be obliterated or remembered no more.

Verses 7 through 9...
These verses provide the names of the ten nations which have evidently formed a coalition against Israel, the Edomites, the Ishmaelites, Moab, the Hagrites, Gebal, Ammon, Amalek, the Philistines, Tyre, and Assyria.

Verses 10 through 13...
The narrator goes on to assume that God himself will fight on Israel's side in the upcoming battle, based on the stories contained in the 4th through 8th chapters of the Book of Judges, citing individual actions attributed to God in that book.

Verses 14 through 19...
In these verses, the narrator specifically requests that God make the opponents of Israel suffer and experience shame and die in disgrace for opposing Israel, and, by extension, God himself. The specifics mentioned, including chaff, fire and storm, are references to the Sirocco.

Verse 19...
In this verse, the narrator states that he wishes God perform these various acts so that all might know that God is the most powerful entity and has sway over all the Earth. This verse, with verse 17, indicates that, although the bulk of the psalm is a prayer for the destruction of the enemies of Israel, there is some positive hope that the enemies of Israel might come to acknowledge the God of Israel. While the King James Version usually translates the tetragrammaton as "LORD", this verse has one of the few occurrences in which it is translated as "JEHOVAH". Presumably for that reason this particular verse is widely quoted, particularly by members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, as evidence that "Jehovah" is the personal name of God.

Now that you know the Psalm and what each verse means let me tell you about who exactly is mentioned as fighting against Israel in verses 7, 8, and 9.

The Edomites...Edom is a name given to Esau in the Old Testament, as well as to the nation descending from him. Esau's name in Hebrew means "hairy", and, according to Genesis 25:25, it is a reference to his hairiness at birth. He is also called "Edom", which means red. Genesis relates this directly to his selling his birthright for some "red stuff" Gen. 25:30. However, Genesis makes a point of mentioning that he was red when he emerged from the womb Gen 25:25. The Edomite people were a Semitic-speaking tribal group inhabiting the Negev Desert and the Arabah valley of what is now around the southern part of the Dead sea and adjacent Jordan. The region has much reddish sandstone, which may have given rise to the name "Edom". The nation of Edom is known to have existed back to the 8th or 9th century BC, and the Bible dates it back several centuries further. So the term Edomites is a ancient name for the Jordanians.
(I trace carefully the immigration of many Edomites in several waves into Israel, the became known as the Idumeans and settled in Idumea. Hebron was their central city and exists in the West Bank today. Thus the Palestinians of today have some Edomite/ Idumean (Greek word for Edomites) ethnical representation within them). (Additionally the "tents of Edom" refer to a Palestinian population residing in either a refugee or military encampment condition. I believe Asaph identifies the Palestinian refugees generally by his usage of the "tents".)

The Ishmaelites...(father of the Arabs primarily settled in Arabia/ Saudi Arabia)
These are the peoples descended from Ishmael. Many people associate the Ishamelites with the Arabs. This is an over-simplification. The Ishmaelites married with the ancient Arab peoples who lived east on Babylon. So the Arab peoples are the only remaining peoples with Ismaelite blood in them.

Book of Jubilees 20:13 And Ishmael and his sons, and the sons of Keturah and their sons, went together and dwelt from Paran to the entering in of Babylon in all the land which is towards the East facing the desert. And these married with each other, and their name was called Arabs, and Ishmaelites.
So the term Ishmaelites refers to the Arab people of today.

Moab...is the historical name for a mountainous strip of land in modern-day Jordan running along the eastern shore of the Dead Sea. In ancient times, it was home to the kingdom of the Moabites, a people often in conflict with their Israelite neighbors to the west. So here Jordan is mentioned again.

The Hagrites...(Hagarenes is a better translation and she represents Egypt as a Matriarch )the Hagrite tribe (also spelled Hagarite) were a nomadic Arabian tribe descended from Hagar. So here again the Arabs are mentioned.

Gebal... It is a Mediterranean city in the Mount Lebanon Governorate of present-day Lebanon under the current Arabic name of Jbeil and was also referred to as Gibelet during the Crusades. So this would be the Lebanese being mentioned.

Ammon... were a people living east of the Jordan river in ancient times. So this refers to Jordan and Syrian peoples since the Jordan river stretches from Syria to Jordan.

Amalek...The Amalek or Amalekites were an ancient nomadic people who originated from the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt but also spread through southern Syria and northwestern Saudi Arabia. So Amalek refers to Egypt, Syria, and Saudi Arabia.

The Philistines (What was their involvement in the 6 day war of 1967)?...The Philistines occupied the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, along the coastal strip of southwestern Canaan, that belonged to Egypt up to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty (ended 1185 BC). So this means the Egyptions and the Palistinians.

Tyre...a city in southern Lebanon. So obviosly this is another reference to the Lebanese.

Assyria...Assyria was originally a region on the Upper Tigris river, named for its original capital, the ancient city of Assur. This is a referance to Iraq. Assur ((Assyria) vs Aram (Syria) Syria became a province of Assyria in several stages, at the time of Asaphs life Northern Syria was taken over by the Assyrians as they conquered the reign of the Hittites. Southern Syria fell later (Damascus))

Now some of you will say that Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria were not mentioned in the Psalm. Keep in mind that these are all Arab nations so they were mentioned indirectly. (This is a stretch, why would Asaph not list them? He listed 10 populations and two of them Edom and Tyre in specific resident conditions "tents" and the "inhabitants of", why would he eliminate these other populations? It is likely because they didn't fit into the two groups at the time, the "those who hate God", and the "enemies of God", and they are not part of the final Psalm 83 confrontation, yet pending.)

In the Six Day War the enemies of Israel were defeated easily and swiftly, they have yet to recover from the psychological trauma and humiliation of their defeat. (This is a gross overstatement, Lebanon/Hezbollah are more armed and dangerous than ever, and Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are as well. Jordan doesn't need to be according to the Psalm, they will be helped by Assyria at the time of the Psalm 83 battle).
One can assume that with God's divine protection Israel will never be defeated

Anonymous said...

It is true that the Arab militaries were defeated soundly and quickly in 1967. Howevewr, Psalm 83 seems to indicate that the defeat is beyond a military defeat and includes significant numbers of the Arab leadership. The Arab leadership was still intact after 1967. In addition, the Arab armies were not anialated in 1967. In fact, just 7 years later they successfully launched a surprise attack against Israel. While they were againh defeated on the battlefield, the military survived as well as the nations. I conclude that fulfillment of the prophecy is yet to come.
Ranger Don

Rodney said...

I personally hold the position that Psalm 83, Isaiah 17, and Ezekiel 38-39 is a culmination of one battle. I believe the Lord God is revealing the strategic planning of the enemies of Israel in the Last Days prior to the Tribulation.

The forces listed in Psalm 83 will be the forward advance troops, Syria of Isaiah 17 will be the location of the forward command. Russia, Iran, and various other strategic partners of the C.I.S. will bring up the rear or final push to destroy Israel.

The nations of the Pslam 83 alliance would not move without a guarantee of projected victory. These enemies will come in waves using whatever means necessary to accomplish their goals. The elimination of the Pslam 83 forces alone would not bring peace to Israel or strategic stability.

It should then be obvious that the Lord God will bring this collection of enemies together to destroy them all in unison. First the immediate neighbors, then the regional threats will be eliminated finally bringing Israel a welcomed but however brief peace.

Without the elimination of all combined threats Israel could not have the required stability to build the Third Temple as Ezekiel 39 suggests. The planning is taking place and the enemies of Israel are prepared to soon meet their prophetic destiny.

Bill Salus said...

Rodney, there are two differing judgments determined for two differing battles, and two differing divine purposes will be accomplished in the aftermath of each. Thus Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 & 39 cannot be the same war. Have you read Isralestine yet? It is all explained therein.

Blessings to you and thank you for your blog comment.

Rodney said...

Mr. Salus, I believe I must disagree, for though they appear to be seperate battles they are a concerted effort by the enemies of Israel. It should also be clear that though they are planning their strategy it is the Lord God that is drawing them to Battle to reveal his Glory to the House of Israel. No, I believe Isaiah 17, Psalm 83, and Ezekiel 38-39 are one strategic battle and it's aftermath is already recorded. Shalom, Baruch Ha Ba B'Shem Adonai

Bill Salus said...

Rodney we agree with the theme of the article that Psalm 83 is a future event. Psalm 83 is motivated by the Ancient Arab enemies of Israel who seek to possess the pastures of God. Ps. 83:12. God will execute judgment upon this Arab confederacy through the hand of the I.D.F. (Ezek. 25:14,37:10,Obadiah 1:18 and elsewhere).

The end result will be the conclusion of the Ancient Arab Hatred (Ezek. 35:5) God will put the world on notice that his Genesis 12:3 Gentile foreign policy is still effectualy in tact. The grand world lesson will be that If Jacob's twin brother Esau couldn't escape the curse for curse in kind clause contained in the Gen. 12:3 how will any other Gentile population that seeks to curse Israel be spared.

Ezek. 38 & 39 comes after the vastly restored fortunes of Israel, which are forthcoming. Israel will be dwelling securely without walls and in a condition of temporary peace in the aftermath of their Ps. 83 victory. Such a condition is not the case with Israel today, but will be the case after the Israeli Conquest over the Ps. 83 confederacy.

God will destroy the Ez. 38 confederacy through other means than the I.D.F. according to Ezek. 39:1-6. In the process of defeating this confederacy God will display His glory. Ezek. 39:7

These are just a couple points of distinction and there are many more addressed in Isralestine. Your viewpoint of meshing the two events into one is appreciated however is not commonly shared by most scholars.

SeanOsborne said...

The basic prophetic differences between Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38/39 are enough to clearly exegete them as two completely different military engagements to occur in the future.

In Psalm 83 the military objective of the conspiring aggressors is nothing less that the existential destruction of Israel and the annihilation of its very name from history. Israel is the name which God Himself bestowed upon His people. Thus the another objective of this group of enemies is to directly oppose the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob(Israel). This group of nations directly border Israel. They are an "inner ring" of enemy nations and non-state ethnic groups.

None of the above is true with regard to the enemy nations identified and described by Ezekiel. With the exception of Libya (to the west of Israel) and Sudan (to the south of Israel), all other enemy nations come from the north. These nations are drawn in, hooks in the jaw, they come to take spoil. There also is not a single mention of any nation directly bordering upon Israel. These nations comprise an "outer ring" of enemy states.

The utter defeat of theenemy nations in Psalm 83 is graphically illustrated in verses 10 through 19. The military forces, command structures and combatant commanders of these enemies will be so thoroughly and completely destroyed that they will either perish into eternal oblivion or end up acknowledging and fully submitting to the God of Israel.
The ancient events and personalities cited in verses 10 & 11 is the prophetic template of what will occur when this war occurs in the very near future.

I believe the reference to Asshur in v.8 indicates some token force of Sunni Arabs from central Iraq lending support to Jordanian forces on Israel's eastern front. By a token force I infer a small number of newly created Iraqi brigade combat teams (BCTs) become involved at the latter stage of combat operations as they are the last enemy cited by Asaph and appear only to lend an arm (meaning strength) or a combat support role.

Blessings,
Sean

Rodney said...

Bill and Sean,

I have enjoyed this healthy debate yet it seems many scholars grasp for straws. Psalm 83 makes no mention of the IDF destroying these enemies in fact, a plea for divine intervention is mentioned. The request is to burn them with fire and to bring a great storm upon them. Ezekiel 38-39 also illustrates this well with fire from heaven, great hailstones and an over flowing rain.

We must as students of Bible prophecy also bring in to context the current realities on the ground in the region. The Palestinians, Jordanians, and Egyptians, along with the Syrians do nothing independently. Supply of arms and training is a cosorted effort by all parties, command and control is also efficient and growing in precision.

Russia currently uses Syria as an observation point and listening post against Israel. Iran firmly controls Hezbollah and Hamas. Lebanon is under direction from Syria. Russia and Iran currently allied with China continue to arm the enemies of Israel rapidly. Russia also has Europe around the throat with the threat of termination of natural gas supplies.

Psalm 83 though definitive in identifying the enemies surrounding Israel does not describe the aftermath of their operation against Israel. Ezekiel 38-39 clearly describes the aftermath, burying those destroyed by the mighty hand of the Lord God for 7 months to cleanse the land in preparation for the construction of the Third Temple. Ezekiel leaves no doubt, but it appears many are using conjecture with the prophecy of Psalm 83. Shalom, Baruch Ha Ba B'Shem Adonai

SeanOsborne said...

Rodney,

There is no need to debate such exegetical issues relative to the blatant differences between Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38/39. I assure you, as stated in my blog above, those cited differences are light-years distant from anything remotely resembling a grasping for straws.

With repect to your statements: "Psalm 83 makes no mention of the IDF destroying these enemies..." and "Psalm 83 though definitive in identifying the enemies surrounding Israel does not describe the aftermath of their operation against Israel," I can only reiterate the exegetical third paragraph in my blog above:

"The utter defeat of the enemy nations in Psalm 83 is graphically illustrated in verses 10 through 19. The military forces, command structures and combatant commanders of these enemies will be so thoroughly and completely destroyed that they will either perish into eternal oblivion or end up acknowledging and fully submitting to the God of Israel.
The ancient events and personalities cited in verses 10 & 11 [are a] prophetic template of what will occur when this war occurs in the very near future.
"

With respect to your statement. "We must as students of Bible prophecy also bring in to context the current realities on the ground in the region," I absolutely agree with you.

Just so you know, I discuss these issues from the prespective of having both studied in detail the military aspects of the Arab-Israel conflict in real-time since 1967, and having been a boot-on-the-ground prior to and during Operation Iraqi Freedom. I was assigned staff to the Coalition Land Forces Command Component (CFLCC) and Combined Joint Task Force-7 (CJTF-7).

I have seen Arab military forces up close and personal, and I know their C2 capabilities as well as anyone not in their chain of command can know them. I also have an advantage of maintaining direct contact with current and former IDF personnel.
Direct experience in these matters are worth big-time bonus points when it comes to the facts on the ground in the middle east. This is the basis for the final sentences in my blog above.

Blessings,
Sean

Rodney said...

Sean,

I also served during Operation Just Cause and Operation Desert Storm with 2/505 PIR, 82nd Airborne Division. However my service does not make me an expert on Arab/Islamic combat tactics. I would also think that someone operating in logistics or supply would also not be qualified.

Once again I must disagree, Psalm 83 makes no mention of an Israeli Defense Force presence or any engagement with the enemy, this is cut and dry. Psalm 83:9-11clearly records a request for the Lord God to dispatch the enemies of Israel and in the past.

While speculation and inventiveness sells books and brings some healthy profits for various authors. I believe some of us are tired of new revelations that clearly add to the context presented. Perhaps Israelstine fits the fictional category better than most.

The clear context of Pslam 83 identifies the call for divine intervention to destroy the enemies encamped and preparing for seige against Israel. The Lord God does not need help to eliminate any of the enemies of Israel, the Gog/Magog Battle makes this clear.

Some well published prophecy scholars even claim that the Gog/Magog Battle will be a nuclear, biological, or chemical attack, yet the context disputes this wholly. The birds of prey and wild beasts devour the flesh of these enemies. No bird or beast would touch contaminated flesh, that should be obvious.

Prophecy is wonderful by itself, it does not need to be refined, added to, or inflated. The Word of God is sufficient for me, and thanks be to God for his Holy Spirit that brings us discernment and leads us unto all truth and yet shows us things to come. We believers have no need to be taught of men, for prophecy is of no hidden interpretation.

We have enough individuals within the Church using the Bible as their personal marketing strategy to enlarge their wallets and use congregations as merchandise. Apostacy is rampant and it is very hard to distinquish the secular World from the Church today, they desire the same lusts of the flesh.

We need Yeshua to again cleanse the Temple from theives, these false shepherds and hirelings who fleece the flock must be removed. We appear today as Laodicea, blind, naked, and poor. The candle is dim and only a remnant remain faithful trusting not in man but only in the Lord God and His precious Word.

Bill Salus said...

Rodney - the demeanor of your latest blog is troublesome. I'm certainly not trying to fleece the flocks. I spent 6 years of study in the writing of Isralestine, and in my estimation, I adequately address the questions and / or comments you have forwarded in your previous blogs. I would encourage, you as I do all the bloggers to express your views, even if they differ from mine and others, but to please do it in a conciliatory manner.

You lump together the 10 populations of Psalm 83 in with the 9 distinctly different populations of Ezekiel 38, something that neither Asaph nor Ezekiel did. I respect them for that and believe that they describe two differing events. This is my sincere and deeply studied view, and I've written about it in Isralestine.

I do hope you have the opportunity to read it someday. Some have disagreed with me, but many others have found the book quite insightful. I'm simply attempting to interpret what I believe is inherent in the prophetic text.

Many Blesssssings to you
Bill

SeanOsborne said...

Rodney,

I also wish to echo Bill's sentiment regarding the demeanor of your response. It was decidedly ad hominem and totally unnecessary.

I most certainly did not stake any claim to being a subject matter "expert." What I stated was that "direct experience in these matters are worth big-time bonus points when it comes to the facts on the ground in the middle east." My military career dates back to 1978 - a little over 8 years after I accepted Christ and prayed for His direction of my life - so the sum total of these experiences have been in preparation for this "hour."

Secondly, be advised that yours truly has not asked for nor received so much as a single cent for the efforts I expend for the glory of the Lord.

Thirdly, Who are you to determine that the Holy Spirit did not place a burden on the various eschatology authors? I find your words are quite to the contrary of Scripture in this regard.

I also note that in your own two-part work regarding the war of Ezekiel 38/39 you did not make so much a single corresponding reference to either Isaiah 17 or Psalm 83. So why do you come here to demean, belittle and insult Bill Salus' work?

I have spent some time to read every post on your personal blog. I can only say at this point that your posts here are completely inconsistent with you have stated within your own blog.

God Bless and Keep You.

Rodney said...

Sean,

While it is true that I do not comment on Psalm 83 or Isaiah 17 on my blog, the reasoning is simple. The primary battle will be the Gog/Magog conflict. Israel countless times has defeated many of the enemies within the Psalm 83 confederation, 1948 Independence War, Sinai Campaign, 1967 Six Day War, and 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Israel soundly defeated these enemies, yet I believe the hand of God provided the victory, battlefield reports indicate bands of angels in action. The destruction of Damascus is easily recognizable being the terrorist hub for many groups and Syria's extensive chemical and biological arsenal.

Ezekiel also mentions the feast of the wild beasts and birds of prey as in the area of Bashan, which is the present day Golan. The Gog/Magog battle is the key to unlock several mysteries of prophecy. The initial earthquake brought by the hand of God will reduce the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa to rubble and dust, clearing the way for the Third Temple.

The Gog/Magog battle describes international recognition of the mighty hand of God, then will come the Anti-Christ offering peace and prosperity. The present global economic conditions are setting the stage for his arrival on the prophetic scene. War is inevitable as many Islamic oil producers watch their profits being reduced to nothing.

I am not new to the subject of prophecy, I have studied for over 20 years having been led by the Lord in this direction. I seek no book deals or personal recognition, I only want others to understand the marvelous plan of God for his creation. To reveal the light of truth to them in darkness. To call for repentance for the day draws short and the night approaches.

Shalom, Baruch Ha Ba B'Shem Adonai

SeanOsborne said...

Rodney said:

"While it is true that I do not comment on Psalm 83 or Isaiah 17 on my blog, the reasoning is simple. The primary battle will be the Gog/Magog conflict. Israel countless times has defeated many of the enemies within the Psalm 83 confederation, 1948 Independence War, Sinai Campaign, 1967 Six Day War, and 1973 Yom Kippur War."

Rodney,

Interesting comment that you made here. It happens to sit squarely within the parameters of a project I am currently working on and will post to the web shortly. My work will address some of the things you cite in the above.

Without running the risk of stealing from my own "thunder" ... so to speak ... I think the point here is that each of these prophecies is a precursor event to an important event which follows it.

Isaiah 17, particularly the total and permanent destruction of Damascus, has never before occured. It will be a very unique, one-of-a-kind event which must have major repercussions in its aftermath. It may very well be the event that precipitates the final fulfillment of Psalm 83 or occur concurrently with it. Which ever the case may be, it might actaully be irrelevent to the "big picture" because in doing my current line ofresearch I am rapidly coming to the exegetical realization that the war of Psalm 83 has quite literally been in the process of a complete and total literal fulfillment since 30 November 1947.

Moreover, the final fulfillment of Psalm 83 will be the precursor event which triggers the War of Gog/Magog; the event which the Lord uses to set the hooks in the jaw in Gog and his multinational horde. Put another way, the defeat of the "inner circle" of enemy nations surrounding Israel draws in the "outer circle" of enemy nations to their own defeat.

The description of the final military defeat of these enemy nations and peoples is to look back into Bible, go and read what literally occured to the Midianites, Sisera and Jabin at the brook of Kison; to Oreb, Zeeb and princes such as Zebah and Zalmunna. Therein you will find the template for what will occur in the near future when Psalm 83 is completely fulfilled.

The War of Gog/Magog is the precursor event which sets the stage for the revealing of the Antichrist and his confirming the 7-year "covenant among many" false peace treaty, Daniel's 70th Week and the apocalyptic battle of Har Megiddo.

In this sequence of events I think it should be quite clear that the War of Gog/Magog is not the "primary battle" but one of a string of events, each of which precedes the next until the appointed time and conclusion of the "Last Days" prior to the Millennial Kingdom of the Lord.

The closing sentence of your comment above is consistent with the commissioned mission objectives we all have from the Lord, and none of which is fiction.

So shall we continue to execute the mission in the name of and for the glory of the Lord.

Donald Dolmus said...

Congratulations Bill for your prophetic work. I can assure you that it has blessed a lot my life and the lives of your Spanish speaking readers.

I agree with your prophetic point of view because I believe that the Lord has given us an important clue: the discovery of the old manuscript found in Ireland in 2006.

I'm pretty sure that the Lord always fulfill His Word. It came to my mind the next passage: Amos 3:12. I believe that the Lord gave to prophet Asaph the complete revelation about the coming Psalm 83 War.

Maybe you should learn some Spanish and pay a visit to Nicaragua so you could teach us about that relevant event and share with us the wisdom that the Lord has given you.

Chris said...

I have enjoyed this healthy debate. I think it is good to hear different opinions about Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 & 39. Time will tell who is right. It is obvious that the set up toward war in the Middle East is upon us.